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Old July 15th 08, 08:35 PM posted to uk.telecom
Michael Atkinson Michael Atkinson is offline
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Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk

Within the past week or so, we've noticed that our number is being withheld
on outgoing calls, with "Private" being shown on the receiving phone. We
have Sky Talk, but line rental though BT. I'm concerned that this will
cause us problems with our friends with ACR (I have few enough friends
anyway :-).

If I prefix the outgoing number with 1280 - to force use of BT - our number
*is* correctly shown. Prefixing with 1470 instead (which I believe allows
the outgoing number to be shown if withheld as standard) doesn't work.

I received the following back from Sky (surprisingly fairly promptly):

"...have advised that this issue is due to the 5 different exchanges that
are used, when your call is routed through some of these exchanges it is
automatically withheld and unfortunately this is not an issue that can be
resolved.

I am sorry that my response could not be of more assistance. Should you
require further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me ..."

Far be it for me to cast aspersions on my friends at Sky, but I trust this
newsgroup more than them! Is it correct that we can't do anything about
this? Do calls really get routed differently depending on provider?

If I can't resolve this situation, I may take BT up on their offer and
return to the fold.

Many thanks for any response.

--
Emails sent to the address in the headers will in all likelihood be ignored
Contact me at
(firstly removing the CAPS LOCK).

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Old July 15th 08, 10:02 PM posted to uk.telecom
Jim Howes Jim Howes is offline
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Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk

Michael Atkinson wrote:
Within the past week or so, we've noticed that our number is being withheld
on outgoing calls, with "Private" being shown on the receiving phone. We
have Sky Talk, but line rental though BT. I'm concerned that this will
cause us problems with our friends with ACR (I have few enough friends
anyway :-).


With a number of networks, particularly TalkTalk in the past, the reason
that the originating CLI may be withheld might be:

1) Calls to mobile networks are being routed onto the mobile networks
via what is effectively a large rack of mobile phones connected to a
system, connected to the originating network. This has the advantages
of keeping call costs down, because the network hasn't negotiated a
proper network interconnect with the mobile networks in question, but
the mobile companies don't like it (because not only are they being paid
less in call termination fees, but such a large concentration of
incoming calls from a particular locality plays merry hell with their
network capacity planning (and they have, in the past, actively looked
for these systems and tried to shut them down))

2) Calls are being re-filed from outside the UK, so the receiving telco,
probably BT, is ignoring the CLI because it believes the caller ID to be
unreliable; alternatively the call may have been passed to Farawayistan
Telecom via a system similar to 1). (The originating network VoIP's
your call to Farawayistan, and then passes it back to BT, which works
out cheaper than actually interconnecting with BT in the first place).

The above is a bit sketchy, I'm afraid; it's a while since I last
investigated it, and the bit about racks-full-of-mobiles may have moved
on a bit by now. I'm not up-to-date with that kind of tech nowdays,
I've moved on into even weirder stuff.

If I prefix the outgoing number with 1280 - to force use of BT - our number
*is* correctly shown.

This will work if your line is still physically connected to BT
equipment, but with carrier pre-select enabled. All of BT's routes
should pass CLI data correctly.

Prefixing with 1470 instead (which I believe allows
the outgoing number to be shown if withheld as standard) doesn't work.

Because the CLI data is squashed somewhere in transit, it doesn't matter
that your number is released by default, or released for a specific call
(via 1470 (which you are correct in believing to be 'Release CLI')) or not.

I received the following back from Sky (surprisingly fairly promptly):

"...have advised that this issue is due to the 5 different exchanges that
are used, when your call is routed through some of these exchanges it is
automatically withheld and unfortunately this is not an issue that can be
resolved.

They aren't telling you which exchanges these are, are they?
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Old July 15th 08, 10:10 PM posted to uk.telecom
Jono Jono is offline
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Posts: 615
Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk

Jim Howes wrote on 15/07/2008 :
With a number of networks, particularly TalkTalk in the past, the reason that
the originating CLI may be withheld might be:

1) Calls to mobile networks are being routed onto the mobile networks via
what is effectively a large rack of mobile phones connected to a system,
connected to the originating network. This has the advantages of keeping
call costs down, because the network hasn't negotiated a proper network
interconnect with the mobile networks in question, but the mobile companies
don't like it (because not only are they being paid less in call termination
fees, but such a large concentration of incoming calls from a particular
locality plays merry hell with their network capacity planning (and they
have, in the past, actively looked for these systems and tried to shut them
down))


Ofcom has recently clarified that it is entirely legal under UK law for
end-users (whether businesses or ordinary consumers) to buy, install
and use GSM gateways for their own use.

However it is currently illegal under UK law for anyone to use GSM
gateway equipment to provide a communications service by way of
business to another person or organisation, irrespective of where the
gateway equipment is located, or how many or few end-users are
connected to each gateway. This prohibition on ‘commercial’ use applies
equally to the mobile network operators (MNOs) as to other
organisations, since the MNOs’ licences do not currently extend to the
installation and use of GSM gateways.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/gsm_gateways/


2) Calls are being re-filed from outside the UK, so the receiving telco,
probably BT, is ignoring the CLI because it believes the caller ID to be
unreliable; alternatively the call may have been passed to Farawayistan
Telecom via a system similar to 1). (The originating network VoIP's your
call to Farawayistan, and then passes it back to BT, which works out cheaper
than actually interconnecting with BT in the first place).


Quite probable.


The above is a bit sketchy, I'm afraid; it's a while since I last
investigated it, and the bit about racks-full-of-mobiles may have moved on a
bit by now. I'm not up-to-date with that kind of tech nowdays, I've moved on
into even weirder stuff.



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Old July 16th 08, 10:48 AM posted to uk.telecom
Harry Broomhall Harry Broomhall is offline
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First recorded activity by TelecomsBanter: Jul 2003
Posts: 50
Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:35:10 +0100, Michael Atkinson
wrote:

Within the past week or so, we've noticed that our number is being withheld
on outgoing calls, with "Private" being shown on the receiving phone. We
have Sky Talk, but line rental though BT. I'm concerned that this will
cause us problems with our friends with ACR (I have few enough friends
anyway :-).

If I prefix the outgoing number with 1280 - to force use of BT - our number
*is* correctly shown. Prefixing with 1470 instead (which I believe allows
the outgoing number to be shown if withheld as standard) doesn't work.

I received the following back from Sky (surprisingly fairly promptly):

"...have advised that this issue is due to the 5 different exchanges that
are used, when your call is routed through some of these exchanges it is
automatically withheld and unfortunately this is not an issue that can be
resolved.

I am sorry that my response could not be of more assistance. Should you
require further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me ..."

Far be it for me to cast aspersions on my friends at Sky, but I trust this
newsgroup more than them! Is it correct that we can't do anything about
this? Do calls really get routed differently depending on provider?


Basicaly - yes.

When you use 1280 the call stays with BT. Without that prefix it
is highly probable that the call is passed from your local exchange to
Thus (who operate CPS for Sky).

What happens next depends on what network the destination is!

It *may* be that when Thus hand back the call to BT, if the
destination is on BT's network, the CLI is missing.

Two possible points he 1) Skytalk is gradualy being migrated
from Thus CPS to BT WholesaleCalls. This may restore your CLI.
2) Have another go at Sky to get this fixed. You will need to say
what networks on the receiving end you have tested. There may be
different results with say a mobile provider, or Virgin, compared to
BT.

Regards,
Harry (writing unofficialy)

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Old July 16th 08, 09:42 PM posted to uk.telecom
Jim Howes Jim Howes is offline
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Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk

Jono wrote:
Ofcom has recently clarified that it is entirely legal under UK law for
end-users (whether businesses or ordinary consumers) to buy, install and
use GSM gateways for their own use.


Ah, yes, those were the words I was looking for. I've been keeping some
very odd hours of late...

So the OP is probably left with the CLI being erased by the call being
re-filed. In which case, probably the best chance he has of finding out
who is calling him is to wait for a government minister to leave a list
of phone calls made by the UK population on a train somewhere.


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Old July 17th 08, 05:29 PM posted to uk.telecom
Michael Atkinson Michael Atkinson is offline
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First recorded activity by TelecomsBanter: Jul 2008
Posts: 2
Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:42:08 +0100, Jim Howes wrote:

So the OP is probably left with the CLI being erased by the call being
re-filed. In which case, probably the best chance he has of finding out
who is calling him is to wait for a government minister to leave a list
of phone calls made by the UK population on a train somewhere.


:-)

Actually the original poster generally gets to know who's calling _him_.
It's my _outgoing_ calls that are now being stripped. I first noticed this
at work (network unknown) when my wife was ringing, then by performing the
trials descibed in my post to my mobile (Vodafone).

I've not yet thanked all for their contributions. *Please accept my
thanks!* It does look like I can either gamble that Sky will restore my CLI
if they move to BT Wholesale, or jump back to BT. The latter might be more
cost effective anyway, as I don't think we're currently using all our BT
call allowance due our calls by default going to Sky (carrier pre-select).

Mike
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Old July 18th 08, 08:51 AM posted to uk.telecom
Graham. Graham. is offline
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First recorded activity by TelecomsBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 259
Default Uxexpectedly withdeld number on Sky Talk



"Jim Howes" wrote in message
...
Michael Atkinson wrote:
Within the past week or so, we've noticed that our number is being
withheld
on outgoing calls, with "Private" being shown on the receiving phone. We
have Sky Talk, but line rental though BT. I'm concerned that this will
cause us problems with our friends with ACR (I have few enough friends
anyway :-).


With a number of networks, particularly TalkTalk in the past, the reason
that the originating CLI may be withheld might be:

1) Calls to mobile networks are being routed onto the mobile networks via
what is effectively a large rack of mobile phones connected to a system,
connected to the originating network. This has the advantages of keeping
call costs down, because the network hasn't negotiated a proper network
interconnect with the mobile networks in question, but the mobile
companies don't like it (because not only are they being paid less in call
termination fees, but such a large concentration of incoming calls from a
particular locality plays merry hell with their network capacity planning
(and they have, in the past, actively looked for these systems and tried
to shut them down))

2) Calls are being re-filed from outside the UK, so the receiving telco,
probably BT, is ignoring the CLI because it believes the caller ID to be
unreliable; alternatively the call may have been passed to Farawayistan
Telecom via a system similar to 1). (The originating network VoIP's your
call to Farawayistan, and then passes it back to BT, which works out
cheaper than actually interconnecting with BT in the first place).

The above is a bit sketchy, I'm afraid; it's a while since I last
investigated it, and the bit about racks-full-of-mobiles may have moved on
a bit by now. I'm not up-to-date with that kind of tech nowdays, I've
moved on into even weirder stuff.

If I prefix the outgoing number with 1280 - to force use of BT - our
number
*is* correctly shown.

This will work if your line is still physically connected to BT equipment,
but with carrier pre-select enabled. All of BT's routes should pass CLI
data correctly.

Prefixing with 1470 instead (which I believe allows
the outgoing number to be shown if withheld as standard) doesn't work.

Because the CLI data is squashed somewhere in transit, it doesn't matter
that your number is released by default, or released for a specific call
(via 1470 (which you are correct in believing to be 'Release CLI')) or
not.

I received the following back from Sky (surprisingly fairly promptly):

"...have advised that this issue is due to the 5 different exchanges that
are used, when your call is routed through some of these exchanges it is
automatically withheld and unfortunately this is not an issue that can be
resolved.

They aren't telling you which exchanges these are, are they?


I expect "exchange" is being used as a generic term here
and is not necessarily referring to the building where the
end-users copper pair terminates.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%




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